<html>
<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>Meeting 2020-04-09 · wg-governance · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/index.html">wg-governance</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html">Meeting 2020-04-09</a></h3>

<hr>

<base href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com">

<head><link href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/style.css" rel="stylesheet"></head>

<a name="193478990"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193478990" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193478990">(Apr 09 2020 at 16:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hello everyone,</p>
<p>It's time for the <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="2317">@WG-governance</span>  meeting! React/Reply with <span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span> to indicate your attendance. Todays agenda can found in the <a href="https://hackmd.io/ATj1rZJaRimaIfIWfAOYfQ" title="https://hackmd.io/ATj1rZJaRimaIfIWfAOYfQ">hackmd</a>, and I've also pasted it below.</p>
<ul>
<li>Project Group RFC </li>
<li>Pre-RFC RFC</li>
<li>Domain WG Retrospective</li>
</ul>
<p>In addition there is a new RFC by <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span>  about a "Major Change Process" for the compiler team. <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904">https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904</a></p>



<a name="193479332"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479332" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479332">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Pre-RFC pre-RFC, in some sense :D</p>



<a name="193479351"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479351" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479351">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hi everyone, I'm a bit slow, be here in 2 minutes</p>



<a name="193479515"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479515" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479515">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hi</p>



<a name="193479525"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479525" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479525">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll be pretty quiet today, not feeling so awesome.</p>



<a name="193479548"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479548" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479548">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll start with a Project Group RFC update. I've made a lot of progress and most of the feedback has been addressed. There is still one or two things. One of which that I thought would be worth discussing is defining the role of "lead"/"shepherd".</p>



<a name="193479552"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479552" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479552">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>I've been feeling like I'm eating a bowl of Alphabet soup with only the letters "R" "F" and "C" in it</p>



<a name="193479791"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479791" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479791">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it's probably a good idea to try to define the term :)</p>



<a name="193479808"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193479808" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193479808">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>For some context here is the original definition of a sub-team lead from the original governance RFC. <a href="https://forge.rust-lang.org/governance/index.html#subteams" title="https://forge.rust-lang.org/governance/index.html#subteams">https://forge.rust-lang.org/governance/index.html#subteams</a></p>



<a name="193480078"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480078" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480078">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>We've had a fair amount of discussion on this in other topics</p>



<a name="193480107"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480107" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480107">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>We still also have a notion of liaison in the RFC, right?</p>



<a name="193480162"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480162" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480162">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes</p>



<a name="193480360"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480360" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480360">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>So I guess the key thing is to define those two roles</p>



<a name="193480391"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480391" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480391">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>And perhaps to bikeshed about the term "shepherd" vs "lead" :)</p>



<a name="193480408"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480408" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480408">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>It sounds like the shepherd and lead can be the same person sometimes, but sometimes not</p>



<a name="193480431"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480431" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480431">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't think that's right</p>



<a name="193480449"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480449" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480449">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>In particular, I don't think shepherd/<strong>lead</strong> are different things?</p>



<a name="193480451"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480451" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480451">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ok, so they should be two different people, yes?</p>



<a name="193480468"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480468" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480468">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>But maybe you meant <strong>liaison</strong>?</p>



<a name="193480473"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480473" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480473">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>shepherd &amp; liaison can be the same person sometimes, but a shepherd "is" a lead</p>



<a name="193480483"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480483" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480483">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>aha</p>



<a name="193480495"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480495" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480495">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>I.e. we would either use the term shepherd or the term lead, but they refer to the same role</p>



<a name="193480527"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480527" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480527">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>ty for clarifying - I was getting confused too :)</p>



<a name="193480546"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480546" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480546">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>welcome!</p>



<a name="193480629"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480629" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480629">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>Re: bikeshedding, I like the term "shpeherd" because, to me, it implies "guidance" rather than authority</p>



<a name="193480662"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480662" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480662">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>So what are the responsibilities of the shepherd?</p>



<a name="193480677"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480677" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480677">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>i think shepherd makes me think of more temporary positions</p>



<a name="193480682"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480682" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480682">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>In my view the role is:</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>liaison</strong> -- a team member that is encouraging the work. They may or may be that directly involved, but they should generally be "more or less up to date" on what's happening and able to represent the work in meetings. They should also look out for when this might intersect other things happening in the team that are beyond the working group itself.</li>
</ul>



<a name="193480719"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480719" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480719">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>also because of this comic: <a href="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/10/1b/21/101b2173a16abc64aa3dd08b52ea55aa.jpg" title="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/10/1b/21/101b2173a16abc64aa3dd08b52ea55aa.jpg">https://i.pinimg.com/originals/10/1b/21/101b2173a16abc64aa3dd08b52ea55aa.jpg</a></p>
<div class="message_inline_image"><a href="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/10/1b/21/101b2173a16abc64aa3dd08b52ea55aa.jpg" title="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/10/1b/21/101b2173a16abc64aa3dd08b52ea55aa.jpg"><img src="https://i.pinimg.com/originals/10/1b/21/101b2173a16abc64aa3dd08b52ea55aa.jpg"></a></div>



<a name="193480749"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480749" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480749">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>my understanding:</p>
<ul>
<li>liason: a team member in the PG</li>
<li>shepherd: someone who is doing non-trivial work in the PG</li>
<li>lead: the leading shepherd who is... leading the PG (so cyclic... heh)</li>
</ul>



<a name="193480767"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480767" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480767">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:11)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li><strong>shepherd(s)</strong> -- they are doing the day to day leading. They help to formulate the overall roadmap, ensure that meetings run, and probably draft RFCs and other things. (or at least delegate those tasks)</li>
</ul>



<a name="193480803"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480803" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480803">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>this clarifies nicely</p>



<a name="193480819"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480819" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480819">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it's more than "someone doing non-trivial work" -- that's probably a (valued) <strong>member</strong> :)</p>



<a name="193480890"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480890" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480890">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> of the PG? I think it would be strange otherwise for someone doing non-trivial work to not be a member :D</p>



<a name="193480904"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480904" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480904">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>important thing: These should be three different people?</p>



<a name="193480906"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480906" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480906">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>and yeah I think liaison and shepherd can be the same person, if someone from the team feels very passionately about a particular item</p>



<a name="193480908"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480908" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480908">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>I agree that a shepherd is more than "doing non-trivial work". In FFI-unwind, Amanieu is probably doing the most "work", but is not a "shepherd" as such.</p>



<a name="193480947"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480947" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480947">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:13)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="249394">Val Grimm</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193480904" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193480904">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>important thing: These should be three different people?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>there are only two :) -- liaison and shepherd (aka lead)</p>



<a name="193480951"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193480951" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193480951">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>Who is the <strong>lead</strong>?</p>



<a name="193481000"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481000" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481000">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>If you mean the shepherd/lead of the ffi-unwind pg, it's <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span></p>



<a name="193481009"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481009" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481009">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>I believe we would like to settle on using either the term "lead" or the term "shepherd" to describe a role in a wg.</p>



<a name="193481052"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481052" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481052">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think something to also clarify is what should happen when there's maybe tension or disagreement between the liaison and the shepherd?</p>



<a name="193481061"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481061" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481061">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>I agree we should settle on one since we can't seem to even have this conversation without confusion heh :)</p>



<a name="193481077"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481077" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481077">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>My impression is that team lead is someone who is involved in the day to day work of the team, and also liases upwards. A liason is not involved in the day to day work of the team and is instead a parent team member whose responsibility it is to check in</p>



<a name="193481103"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481103" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481103">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>s/team/project-group/, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132040">@Manish Goregaokar</span> ?</p>



<a name="193481105"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481105" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481105">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think both models are useful; the dev tools team has some WGs without leads and we basically check in with them and they're fine</p>



<a name="193481114"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481114" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481114">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>I thought lead &amp; shepherd were different roles; with there being potentially many shepherds</p>



<a name="193481134"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481134" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481134">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132040">@Manish Goregaokar</span>  Or at least is not "required" to be part of day-to-day-work</p>



<a name="193481153"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481153" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481153">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:14)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> precisely</p>



<a name="193481173"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481173" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481173">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>On FFI-unwind we have two shepherds; <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="237472">@acfoltzer</span> is the other one.</p>



<a name="193481226"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481226" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481226">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:15)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="219696">XAMPPRocky</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481052" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481052">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think something to also clarify is what should happen when there's maybe tension or disagreement between the liaison and the shepherd?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>this is a good question, maybe good to clarify a bit more what you mean</p>



<a name="193481242"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481242" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481242">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>So Liason is Niko, and Lead is Amanieu</p>



<a name="193481326"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481326" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481326">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>He's had less time so far to do work for the group, but I consider him a "partner" lead alongside myself - I would say we are both either "shepherds" or "leads".</p>



<a name="193481331"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481331" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481331">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am confused <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126931">@centril</span> -- are you implying that lead and shepherd are two distinct roles?</p>



<a name="193481339"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481339" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481339">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>as clippy team lead, i actually review clippy PRs and do clippy work. As someone who occasionally liases with the rustfmt and rustup WGs, i do not review PRs or make decisions under normal circumstances, however i talk to the people who do</p>



<a name="193481368"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481368" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481368">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> that's my read of what the RFC says</p>



<a name="193481380"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481380" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481380">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>(both sub-WGs have leads so it's not a perfect comparison, but this would work even without leads)</p>



<a name="193481433"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481433" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481433">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:17)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="126931">centril</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481368" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481368">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>that's my read of what the RFC says</p>
</blockquote>
<p>OK. I don't believe that's intended, but <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219696">@XAMPPRocky</span> can clarify.</p>



<a name="193481452"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481452" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481452">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes that's not intended.</p>



<a name="193481471"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481471" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481471">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:17)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132040">@Manish Goregaokar</span> seems right, and I think that e.g. if there <em>were</em> an issue that needed clarification from team, they might come to you to say "hey how should we deal with this"</p>



<a name="193481504"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481504" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481504">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:17)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="219696">XAMPPRocky</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481052" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481052">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think something to also clarify is what should happen when there's maybe tension or disagreement between the liaison and the shepherd?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I would say:</p>
<ul>
<li>document the disagreements with the pros &amp; cons</li>
<li>discuss with the wider PG</li>
<li>bring it to the "parent" team (e.g., T-Lang)</li>
</ul>



<a name="193481511"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481511" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481511">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>Looks to me like the main part implying that leads/shepherds are different is:</p>
<blockquote>
<ul>
<li>Archival can be started by the project group shepherds, the liasion, or the lead(s) of<br>
  the parent team if needed.</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2856/files#diff-540621c0421522b9b3f25d2ad9860531R104" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2856/files#diff-540621c0421522b9b3f25d2ad9860531R104">https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2856/files#diff-540621c0421522b9b3f25d2ad9860531R104</a></p>



<a name="193481578"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481578" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481578">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>For the record - we're talking about the shepherd/liason roles in project groups, not in the pre-RFC process</p>



<a name="193481582"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481582" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481582">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>Correct</p>



<a name="193481589"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481589" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481589">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>Although they are the same terms that I used in that post</p>



<a name="193481615"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481615" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481615">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126931">@centril</span>'s points are fine for a technical disagreement. I think it's also possible that we find that either:</p>
<ul>
<li>liaisons are not able to really "do their role"</li>
<li>or the same for shepherds</li>
</ul>



<a name="193481630"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481630" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481630">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>and/or they just don't work well together</p>



<a name="193481646"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481646" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481646">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think this should get kicked up to team lead to mediate, and core team can help out :)</p>



<a name="193481651"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481651" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481651">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>But there is also this:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Project Groups are led by "Shepherds".</p>
</blockquote>



<a name="193481660"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481660" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481660">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah that also makes sense, in more extreme circumstances</p>



<a name="193481661"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481661" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481661">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>So, here's the thing</p>



<a name="193481664"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481664" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481664">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>(much like other disagreements)</p>



<a name="193481673"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481673" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481673">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>we're trying to describe a current</p>



<a name="193481681"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481681" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481681">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>slightly chaotic reality</p>



<a name="193481692"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481692" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481692">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would propose that the term "lead" (where it refers to a leadership role for a wg) be changed to "shepherd" throughout the doc</p>



<a name="193481695"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481695" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481695">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>which it is hard to come up with</p>



<a name="193481698"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481698" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481698">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>consistent definitions based on</p>



<a name="193481708"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481708" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481708">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:19)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481646" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193481646">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think this should get kicked up to team lead to mediate, and core team can help out <span aria-label="slight smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p>(actual decisions would continue through FCP and team consensus process and whatnot, though)</p>



<a name="193481804"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481804" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481804">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>(but you mention it's less about the technical)</p>



<a name="193481827"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481827" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481827">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>Do you mean like "technical decisions"? I agree, those are always made through FCP process etc</p>



<a name="193481828"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481828" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Val Grimm <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481828">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>so maybe instead it would be better to start with what needs to be done, be clear about what that is and how it should be segmented, have say the list of responsibilities as it was in that forge doc</p>



<a name="193481838"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481838" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481838">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>Or vice-versa, changing "shepherd" to "lead". I think "shepherd" encourages a certain mindset, but "lead" may be more intuitive.</p>



<a name="193481940"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481940" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481940">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>"lead" feels more "there's one person" to me btw</p>



<a name="193481946"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481946" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481946">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>Do these definitions still fit?</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>liaison</strong> -- a team member that is sponsoring the work. They may or may be that directly involved, but they should check-in periodically and be able to represent the work in meetings. They should also look out for when this might intersect other things happening in the team that are beyond the working group itself. They are a point of contact for the group to ask questions as well.</li>
<li><strong>shepherd(s) or lead(s)</strong> -- they are doing the day to day leading. They help to formulate the overall roadmap, ensure that meetings run, that the work of the group is transparent through blog posts or summaries, and probably draft RFCs and other things. (Or at least delegate those tasks)</li>
</ul>



<a name="193481953"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193481953" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193481953">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>vs. "shepherds" as several people feels more natural</p>



<a name="193482000"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482000" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482000">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>Before we bikeshed the term shepherd vs lead</p>



<a name="193482026"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482026" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482026">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>i do not like using the term shepherd used for this</p>



<a name="193482060"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482060" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482060">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>we have already used it very strongly to mean a more just-in-time thing of temporary leadership</p>



<a name="193482069"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482069" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482069">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>hold that topic I want to see if we have consensus on the definitions :)</p>



<a name="193482107"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482107" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482107">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>i mean, this is a comment on the definition, it does not signify day to day leading to me</p>



<a name="193482136"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482136" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482136">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>"Organizer"?</p>



<a name="193482163"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482163" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482163">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>substitute "lead" in your head if it helps</p>



<a name="193482197"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482197" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482197">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh okay, is the question a def for shepherd/lead?</p>



<a name="193482202"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482202" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482202">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway I think we do...?</p>



<a name="193482217"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482217" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482217">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah in that case that makes sense</p>



<a name="193482222"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482222" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482222">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes</p>



<a name="193482287"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482287" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482287">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>sorry, i misunderstood</p>



<a name="193482340"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482340" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482340">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>Seems everyone is happy about the definitions</p>



<a name="193482363"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482363" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482363">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>Some bikeshed necessary though? :P</p>



<a name="193482390"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482390" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482390">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK, great, let's talk about the term shepherd/lead</p>



<a name="193482418"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482418" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482418">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>h/o I have a comment</p>



<a name="193482449"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482449" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482449">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>the only thing I'd consider adding is that leads are, in my mind, responsible for overall "wg transparency"</p>



<a name="193482494"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482494" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482494">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I previously expressed this as "shepherds should produce periodic summaries" but that's too concrete/implementation-focused</p>



<a name="193482504"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482504" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482504">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I adopted the term Shepherd because I see the role as "guiding" the design and conversation. But I don't feel very strongly. I am ok with lead.</p>



<a name="193482525"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482525" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482525">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe we'll repurpose the term shepherd in some other context :)</p>



<a name="193482543"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482543" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482543">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193482390" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193482390">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>OK, great, let's talk about the term shepherd/lead</p>
</blockquote>
<p>"shepherd" doesn't feel descriptive; it doesn't imply "you are doing lotsa organizing", and "lead" doesn't necessarily either</p>



<a name="193482545"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482545" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482545">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>Personally I think I have a preference for "lead", because it reduces the overall number of terms/jargon. I agree with the intent behind shepherd.</p>



<a name="193482551"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482551" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482551">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:26)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="120076">BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193482449" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193482449">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>the only thing I'd consider adding is that leads are, in my mind, responsible for overall "wg transparency"</p>
</blockquote>
<p>ooh, this is good</p>



<a name="193482637"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482637" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482637">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would suggest a third term: <strong>coordinator</strong> (yes, I googled synonyms for "organizer")</p>



<a name="193482728"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482728" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482728">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>the transparency aspect is important because w/out specifying that this is the responsibility of the lead/coordinator/shepherd/organizer/project-manager, it could otherwise fall to the liaison, who, as a member of a Rust team such as lang, is probably over-burdened anyway</p>



<a name="193482815"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482815" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482815">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I added some notes about transparency)</p>



<a name="193482833"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482833" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482833">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>I prefer the term "lead" to "coordinator" or "organizer",</p>



<a name="193482842"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482842" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482842">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>I personally prefer "lead" or "shepherd" above "coordinator" or "project manager"</p>



<a name="193482912"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482912" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482912">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>in part because I think that part of the role is likely to be .. hmm .. somewhat more than just "putting things in order"</p>



<a name="193482940"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482940" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482940">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>it's also got an element of steering to it, I think, helping to move things towards consensus and a good result</p>



<a name="193482952"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482952" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482952">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132040">@Manish Goregaokar</span> I think the just-in-time aspect may not be a problem? Project groups, in particular, are not intended to last forever</p>



<a name="193482958"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482958" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482958">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway I mostly think <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219696">@XAMPPRocky</span> is right about fewer terms</p>



<a name="193482960"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482960" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482960">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>if we don't use the term lead,</p>



<a name="193482968"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482968" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482968">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>my impression of shepherds is that they're facilitators not leaders</p>



<a name="193482981"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482981" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482981">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>people will use it anyway</p>



<a name="193482999"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193482999" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193482999">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>( as we've seen in this meeting :) )</p>



<a name="193483002"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483002" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483002">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>resulting in confusion</p>



<a name="193483015"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483015" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483015">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> just-in-time as in _very_ short time periods, shepherds are per-rfc</p>



<a name="193483023"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483023" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483023">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>That's kind of how I view my role as a shepherd, though. As I mentioned above, I don't view the shepherd role as necessarily having much "authority"</p>



<a name="193483027"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483027" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483027">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>hmmmm</p>



<a name="193483028"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483028" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483028">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>also yeah +++1 to erin's point</p>



<a name="193483036"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483036" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483036">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm <span aria-label="thumbs up" class="emoji emoji-1f44d" role="img" title="thumbs up">:thumbs_up:</span> on "Lead"</p>



<a name="193483080"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483080" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483080">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:29)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132040">@Manish Goregaokar</span> is that just because of how the term has been used w/in the Rust org, or something inherent to the word "shepherd" in your mind?</p>



<a name="193483085"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483085" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483085">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I have no strong preference for anything)</p>



<a name="193483090"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483090" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483090">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>As a quick time check we've reached half way through our time. Should we move on? It seems like we've hit a general consensus but I want to be sure.</p>



<a name="193483208"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483208" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483208">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>I still prefer "shepherd", but I think that even if we adopt "lead" we can reconsider changing it to "shepherd" at a later date.</p>



<a name="193483256"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483256" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483256">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>Okay, so that brings us to the next topic, pre-rfcs <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="225192">@Nell Shamrell-Harrington</span></p>



<a name="193483265"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483265" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483265">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>Cool</p>



<a name="193483309"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483309" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483309">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>I started work on a pre-rfc rfc <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904/files" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904/files">https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904/files</a></p>



<a name="193483318"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483318" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483318">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>but it is in very early draft form now</p>



<a name="193483341"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483341" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483341">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="225192">@Nell Shamrell-Harrington</span> wrong link?</p>



<a name="193483383"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483383" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483383">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>gah</p>



<a name="193483403"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483403" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483403">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/pull/47/files" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/pull/47/files">https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/pull/47/files</a></p>



<a name="193483462"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483462" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483462">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>There is also a notes page in that PR trying to consolidate points from various conversations in various meetings</p>



<a name="193483530"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483530" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483530">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>there are a couple of points that need clarifying - one (similar to our conversation for the last 30 min) is clarification of what the role of "shepherd" and "liason" are in the context of the pre-rfc process</p>



<a name="193483535"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483535" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483535">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>First note is that the lead (nee shepherds)/liaisons terms are the same as the ones we were just discussed</p>



<a name="193483541"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483541" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483541">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>i'm a bit wary of formalizing the pre-rfc process; in my experience the pre-rfc process exists _explicitly to sidestep formalization_ and have a low-overhead way of getting feedback on concrete proposals</p>



<a name="193483566"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483566" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483566">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>So--</p>



<a name="193483567"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483567" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483567">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>two - this seems like something we should try with one team before trying to come up with a standard process for all teams</p>



<a name="193483577"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483577" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483577">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>this doesn't mean that we shouldn't have this process, i'm just pointing out that this will not replace pre-rfcs as they exist today</p>



<a name="193483580"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483580" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483580">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>it might be a branding issue <em>but</em></p>



<a name="193483632"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483632" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483632">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh sorry nell is still talking</p>



<a name="193483649"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483649" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483649">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>nah, I'm done for now</p>



<a name="193483654"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483654" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483654">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>but ty!</p>



<a name="193483677"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483677" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483677">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Zulip add "xxx is typing" when)</p>



<a name="193483702"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483702" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483702">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>might be a nice feature request, yeah...</p>



<a name="193483717"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483717" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483717">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>discuss away!</p>



<a name="193483757"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483757" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483757">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>so, I agree that there is still value to posting a pre-RFC on an internals thread without a lot of hoopla</p>



<a name="193483786"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483786" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483786">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also think of the pre-RFC process as a sort of filter for the teams... You have a very unbaked idea? Internals will give you some feedback and the proposal might get shot down quickly</p>



<a name="193483861"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483861" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483861">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>or it might be found to be something very clever / good / interesting, and should be developed further</p>



<a name="193483910"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483910" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483910">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>So what I think is that this can just be an upgraded verson of the existing pre-rfcs. It's definitely written that way in nell's draft!</p>
<p>As in, you can make a pre-rfc with zero overhead the way you do today, but you can also ask for a shepherd/etc. Team members are encouraged to ask "hey do you want a shepherd/etc for this rfc" on pre-rfcs</p>



<a name="193483944"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483944" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483944">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the things I would like from <em>some</em> process are:</p>
<ul>
<li>first, to have a way for people to get help in drafting RFCs, and to lighten that load. I've heard from plenty of folks that the process as it exists is kind of scary, and that it encourages you to (e.g.) open a "fully fledged" RFC that might, indeed, just not be something people are all that interested in at all.</li>
</ul>



<a name="193483947"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193483947" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193483947">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>Here are the things I think we can gain from a semi-formalized "process":</p>
<ul>
<li>earlier buy-in: people won't write a whole RFC only to have the relevant team say "we will not pursue this in any form"</li>
<li>guidance (the original "shepherding" idea, which AFAIK isn't actually being used in practice)</li>
<li>less churn once the RFC PR is opened</li>
</ul>



<a name="193484038"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484038" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484038">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>Er, I guess most of that was already said while I was typing</p>



<a name="193484050"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484050" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484050">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:37)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>second, a more focused set of "open PRs" against the RFC repo. I basically think we should onlyl have a PR there once there is some member of the lang team actively serving as a liaison</li>
</ul>



<a name="193484060"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484060" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484060">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:37)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>Team members are encouraged to ask "hey do you want a shepherd/etc for this rfc" on pre-rfcs</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Btw, this is something I find happens</p>



<a name="193484118"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484118" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484118">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>(perhaps too frequently for my taste)</p>



<a name="193484125"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484125" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484125">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think that asking for folks to join in on threads is "ok" but not quite enough</p>



<a name="193484150"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484150" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484150">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>I also feel like there shouldn't be an expectation</p>



<a name="193484179"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484179" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484179">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>One problem I have with the current situation is that pre-rfcs are kind of forgotten until someone posts their version. I don't know how many <a href="http://crates.io" title="http://crates.io">crates.io</a> pre-RFCs have started with someone writing their own RFC and then quickly told there have been 4 or 5 pre-rfcs for the feature already.</p>



<a name="193484182"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484182" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484182">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="126931">centril</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193484118" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193484118">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>(perhaps too frequently for my taste)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That's interesting. What is the downside of that happening "too" frequently?</p>



<a name="193484196"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484196" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484196">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>that is, I'd like a way for people to have "open requests", and I think it's on the team to review thsoe, but sometimes things will sit for a long time in this state, and that's ok</p>



<a name="193484229"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484229" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484229">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>(because there's only so much bandwidth)</p>



<a name="193484252"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484252" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484252">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me goes back to re-read everyone else's comments :)</p>



<a name="193484280"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484280" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484280">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:39)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> a language team seeking to produce too many designs I think; and especially when there's an imbalance in team member distribution re. "hey do you want a shepherd"</p>



<a name="193484342"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484342" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484342">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>I agree with <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="132040">@Manish Goregaokar</span> that it would be totally possible (and probably good) if the <em>very first step</em> is just "open a thread", and then at some point, when you feel the thread is ready, maybe you open the issue that points us at the thread (or I think it's also ok to open the issue first).</p>



<a name="193484376"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484376" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484376">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:40)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>sometimes things will sit for a long time in this state, and that's ok</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The problem currently, I think, is that the open PR page on the RFC repo is not a great place for many such requests to "sit for a long time"</p>



<a name="193484395"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484395" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484395">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, I agree with that.</p>



<a name="193484503"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484503" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484503">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:41)</a>:</h4>
<p>(What I'm saying could totally be a non-issue for other teams btw; just relaying how I feel about the lang team)</p>



<a name="193484527"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484527" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484527">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:41)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126931">@centril</span> Oh  - hm. I think that's actually part of what we're trying to solve here. It shouldn't be so much that people are "offered" shepherds (especially by random commenters who aren't volunteering to _be_ a shepherd), but that people are encouraged to _find_ shepherds before proceeding.</p>



<a name="193484592"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484592" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484592">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>I.e. "this proposal should have a shepherd" should itself be a limiting factor</p>



<a name="193484631"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484631" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484631">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>It should, sometimes, imply "this proposal needs to wait until team resources are freed up"</p>



<a name="193484710"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484710" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484710">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>here is my attempt to start making a "flowchart" :)</p>



<a name="193484713"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484713" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484713">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:43)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://hackmd.io/0aXUYmS5Q7e4XoxBzpyAbQ" title="https://hackmd.io/0aXUYmS5Q7e4XoxBzpyAbQ">https://hackmd.io/0aXUYmS5Q7e4XoxBzpyAbQ</a></p>



<a name="193484825"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484825" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484825">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>my assumption re: leads is that generally speaking the person opening the issue is also volunteering to "lead"</p>



<a name="193484837"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193484837" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193484837">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I'm switching from shepherd to "lead", per our earlier conversation)</p>



<a name="193485180"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485180" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485180">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>I just added a few more nodes :)</p>



<a name="193485192"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485192" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Manish Goregaokar <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485192">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>i like this</p>



<a name="193485202"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485202" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485202">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>Even for small proposals, I think it may be worthwhile to at least encourage (if not mandate) that the RFC be drafted in stages, collaboratively.</p>



<a name="193485211"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485211" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485211">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:47)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>It should, sometimes, imply "this proposal needs to wait until team resources are freed up"</p>
</blockquote>
<p>We could do better at communicating our bandwidth, as it will still be work to handle incoming requests even if they won't be completed.</p>



<a name="193485241"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485241" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485241">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes so</p>



<a name="193485296"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485296" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485296">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think this is <em>mildly</em> out of scope, maybe, but maybe not..</p>



<a name="193485304"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485304" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485304">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>I.e. I'd break the "AuthoRFC" node down a bit:</p>
<ul>
<li>Open collaborative RFC-draft document and communication chanel (e.g. Zulip/Discord/Slack, up to author &amp; liaison)<ul>
<li>It is okay for proposals to get "stuck" here for a while!</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>Authors agree to post PR</li>
<li>Standard RFC process ensues (starting w/ PR)<ul>
<li>We want to avoid proposals getting "stuck" here</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>



<a name="193485311"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485311" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485311">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would like to see e.g. lang team expressing a kind of mapping</p>



<a name="193485323"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485323" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485323">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>like "here are the members and the things they are serving as liaison for"</p>



<a name="193485332"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485332" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485332">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>plus "here are the kinds of things they like to liaison"</p>



<a name="193485342"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485342" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485342">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>the idea being that be seeing people's "queues"</p>



<a name="193485372"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485372" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485372">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>it's clearer what the bandwidth is</p>



<a name="193485431"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485431" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485431">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>in any case I definitely think we should try to be clearer about that, and I think we'd find it really useful also for communicating to each other what we're trying to work on</p>



<a name="193485449"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485449" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485449">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>sweet  - this gives me more to work with when revising the draft :)</p>



<a name="193485455"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485455" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485455">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>(we've been taking some baby steps and I've found it useful, personally)</p>



<a name="193485543"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485543" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485543">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>Question now (which we can take up next week) is what team should try out the process first</p>



<a name="193485551"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485551" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485551">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>I agree, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span>, and I also agree that once it is time to start authoring the RFC, I think the distinction ebtween "project group" and "active project" might be slim --</p>



<a name="193485567"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485567" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485567">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>the lang team comes to mind for me - since they are already doing a lightweight pre-rfc process</p>



<a name="193485617"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485617" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485617">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>in compiler team and elsewhere I was drawing this distinction of a <em>project</em> vs a <em>project group</em>. The idea being that every project group is also a project, but for some projects, there isn't all a real "group" around it, just a channel and a few folks communicating.</p>



<a name="193485620"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485620" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485620">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:50)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> I like that. This is definitely out of scope, but I've thinking about having some kind of general contribution page that better directs people towards efforts that are actively looking for contributors and work.</p>



<a name="193485631"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485631" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485631">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193485551" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193485551">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I agree, <span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="120076">BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span>, and I also agree that once it is time to start authoring the RFC, I think the distinction ebtween "project group" and "active project" might be slim --</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I think the difference is that project groups _require_ some things that are probably optional in the general case:</p>
<ul>
<li>Dedicated chat channel</li>
<li>Dedicated repository</li>
</ul>



<a name="193485652"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485652" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485652">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="225192">Nell Shamrell-Harrington</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193485567" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193485567">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>the lang team comes to mind for me - since they are already doing a lightweight pre-rfc process</p>
</blockquote>
<p>yeah I was assuming that we'd start with lang team and try to encourage others to adopt over time</p>



<a name="193485659"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485659" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485659">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>I do think eventually we should try to "consolidate" this</p>



<a name="193485669"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485669" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485669">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>note that the compiler team <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/pull/2904">MCP that I just proposed</a> is actually quite similar to this</p>



<a name="193485673"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485673" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485673">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:51)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> btw, after "stabilize features", consider having some sort of "maintain features, fix bugs, etc." (e.g. wg-async-foundations)</p>



<a name="193485758"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485758" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485758">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>cool - I will revise the draft and come back with a new one next week for us to discuss at the next meeting</p>



<a name="193485768"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485768" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485768">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>ty, all, this was very helpful :)</p>



<a name="193485770"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485770" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485770">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>though I don't think I realized just how similar it was until just now</p>



<a name="193485820"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485820" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485820">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:52)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126931">@centril</span> yes. In <a class="stream" data-stream-id="185694" href="/#narrow/stream/185694-t-compiler.2Fwg-meta">#t-compiler/wg-meta</a> recently, we were talking about the distinction between <em>projects</em> and <em>areas</em> -- the idea being that major projects often turn into <em>areas</em> of the compiler that need to be maintained afterwards</p>



<a name="193485829"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485829" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485829">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>/giphy dirk gently everything is connected</p>



<a name="193485855"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485855" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485855">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>actually now that I think about it, the MCP thing in some sense <em>is</em> this process</p>



<a name="193485885"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485885" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485885">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>slighty tweaked in that it's engineered to allow "small things" to just go through with some advertisement</p>



<a name="193485893"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485893" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485893">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>which probably applies to lang team too, honestly</p>



<a name="193485921"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485921" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485921">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>for small tweaks yeah</p>



<a name="193485951"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193485951" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193485951">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah, I mean sometimes we have proposals like "we should implement this trait for that type" or whatever</p>



<a name="193486016"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486016" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486016">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>although that is harder to assess for language design; things which are trivial to impl might also be super easy to have opinions on</p>



<a name="193486017"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486017" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486017">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>interesting</p>



<a name="193486050"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486050" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486050">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>So does it merit merging the two efforts? I think most teams also want to let in small changes and advertise it.</p>



<a name="193486081"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486081" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486081">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>well I think we might tweak it a <em>bit</em> but the idea of "float the idea in this way and let team try to assess which path is needed afterwards" seems fine</p>



<a name="193486110"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486110" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486110">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span>  hmm, impl traits for a type as a lang thing?</p>



<a name="193486113"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486113" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486113">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:54)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="219696">XAMPPRocky</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193486050" title="#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09/near/193486050">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>So does it merit merging the two efforts? I think most teams also want to let in small changes and advertise it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>that's what I'm wondering. It seems to me that it does.</p>



<a name="193486149"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486149" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486149">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:55)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126931">@centril</span> ok maybe not best example, anyway you know what I mean tho</p>



<a name="193486195"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486195" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486195">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:55)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> let's assume I don't... I might not, actually <span aria-label="slight smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="193486315"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486315" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486315">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>unless it's "small tweak" in general, then sure</p>



<a name="193486320"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486320" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486320">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>all I'm saying is that we sometimes make small decisions, often on PRs, and sometimes we push that further up, requesting an RFC, or at least a write-up, etc</p>



<a name="193486341"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486341" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486341">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>yes, just the general idea of "small tweaks don't even merit RFCs sometimes"</p>



<a name="193486345"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486345" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486345">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>yeah, ok, I know what you mean</p>



<a name="193486366"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486366" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486366">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think the basic idea is same on compiler team, but the ratio of requests using each path is different</p>



<a name="193486391"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486391" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486391">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219696">@XAMPPRocky</span> to echo your point from earlier, I think having the same terminology for these things is very useful</p>



<a name="193486472"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486472" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486472">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>one of the things I wanted to do on the compiler team was to create a flow chart ("so you want to do X" was my working title) that would guide people on the process for each kind of thing they might want to do</p>



<a name="193486503"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486503" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486503">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>it probably looks quite similar to that hackmd</p>



<a name="193486520"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486520" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486520">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Okay real quick we have 2 minutes left.</p>



<a name="193486531"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486531" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486531">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>(with some more stuff, e.g., often it will just be "open a PR")</p>



<a name="193486625"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486625" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486625">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>well I guess the conclusion is that Nell and I can put our heads together on MCP vs "pre-rfc" etc</p>



<a name="193486637"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486637" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486637">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> I'd be interested in collaborting w/ you on such a flowchart</p>



<a name="193486665"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486665" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486665">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>So for next time, I'm thinking we have the same topics, though I would expect project group rfc just to be a status update.</p>



<a name="193486728"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486728" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486728">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>Seems reasonable. We didn't talk much about domain WGs.</p>



<a name="193486764"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486764" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486764">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>that ties into something I wanted to mention as a possible future meeting topic: I asked @dpc about how easy it is to "scale" the triage team, b/c for people looking for "ways to contribute" to Rust (who don't have specific things they want to do), that seems like a promising candidate</p>



<a name="193486766"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486766" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486766">(Apr 09 2020 at 17:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>We discussed it very briefly in the core team meeting, I think the logic next step is probably trying to write-up the notes from before, and maybe have a conversation about what people are really <em>looking for</em> when they think about forming a domain WG</p>



<a name="193486853"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486853" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486853">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120076">@BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand)</span> see also <a class="stream" data-stream-id="227806" href="/#narrow/stream/227806-t-compiler.2Fwg-prioritization">#t-compiler/wg-prioritization</a></p>



<a name="193486871"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486871" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486871">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>So I think at some point it would be good to discuss "how do newcomers get involved"</p>



<a name="193486882"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486882" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486882">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Okay that's the meeting everyone! Thanks for attending! <span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="193486886"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486886" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486886">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>but yes, I'd love to have a "master flow chart" for the whole project</p>



<a name="193486889"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486889" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> BatmanAoD (Kyle Strand) <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486889">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p><span aria-label="wave" class="emoji emoji-1f44b" role="img" title="wave">:wave:</span></p>



<a name="193486913"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486913" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486913">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Is anyone willing to write the update post for the "Inside Rust" on the meeting for the "Inside Rust" blog?</p>



<a name="193486962"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193486962" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193486962">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>I can do it</p>



<a name="193487004"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193487004" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193487004">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:01)</a>:</h4>
<p>Thank you <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="225192">@Nell Shamrell-Harrington</span> <span aria-label="slight smile" class="emoji emoji-1f642" role="img" title="slight smile">:slight_smile:</span></p>



<a name="193487112"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193487112" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193487112">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<div class="message_inline_image"><a href="https://media.tenor.com/images/37f1c7d48a94fddfe89c3bdde90503f6/tenor.gif" title="https://media.tenor.com/images/37f1c7d48a94fddfe89c3bdde90503f6/tenor.gif"><img src="https://media.tenor.com/images/37f1c7d48a94fddfe89c3bdde90503f6/tenor.gif"></a></div>



<a name="193487160"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193487160" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193487160">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was just recently watching BSG</p>



<a name="193487176"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193487176" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193487176">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:02)</a>:</h4>
<p>one of my all time favorites :)</p>



<a name="193487216"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193487216" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193487216">(Apr 09 2020 at 18:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>alright, got to go get things ready for our new little foster bunny who is arriving in about half an hour - ty all!</p>



<a name="193828320"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193828320" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193828320">(Apr 13 2020 at 22:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>PR with meeting minutes <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/pull/48" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/pull/48">https://github.com/rust-lang/wg-governance/pull/48</a></p>



<a name="193931439"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting%202020-04-09/near/193931439" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Nell Shamrell-Harrington <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/223182-wg-governance/topic/Meeting.202020-04-09.html#193931439">(Apr 14 2020 at 17:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>Pull request with the blog post is up! <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/562" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/562">https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/562</a></p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
</html>